Untangling Self-Worth with Sheri Johnson

Dr. Jay is joined by Sheri Johnson to unpack the nuances between being childfree and childless, drawing from Sheri's personal experience of transitioning from a fertility journey to embracing a childfree lifestyle. Sheri shares her  journey of grappling with miscarriages, fertility challenges, and the pivotal decision that led her to redefine her path without children.

Through heartfelt dialogue, they explore the societal pressures surrounding parenthood, challenging stereotypes, and societal expectations. Sheri offers valuable insights into untangling one's desires from external pressures, empowering listeners to navigate their unique journeys with authenticity and self-awareness.

They delve into the intricate facets of self-worth, shedding light on the distinction between self-esteem and self-worth. They also discuss practical strategies for cultivating self-worth, emphasizing the importance of introspection, setting boundaries, and honoring one's authentic desires.

Connect with Sheri using the links below:

+ Instagram https://www.instagram.com/sherijohnsoncoaching/

+ Website sherijohnson.ca

+ Worthiness Quiz https://sherijohnson.ca/quiz/

Resources:

+ Unlearning the Standard Life Plan with Katy Seppi

+ Essential Retirement Planning for Solo Agers by Sarah Zeff Geber, PhD (Book Club)

+ Portraits of Childfree Wealth by Dr. Jay Zigmont, CFP®

+ The Worthy Project by Meadow Devoir

The Childfree Wealth Podcast, hosted by Bri Conn and Dr. Jay Zigmont, CFP®, is a financial and lifestyle podcast that explores the unique perspectives and concerns of childfree individuals and couples.

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If you want to join the conversation, email us at media@childfreewealth.com, follow Childfree Wealth® on social media, or visit our website www.childfreewealth.com!

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Disclaimer: This podcast is for educational & entertainment purposes. Please consult your advisor before implementing any ideas heard on this podcast.

Transcript

Dr. Jay

Hey Childfree Wealth listeners. So today’s something a little different. This is I'm going to have a conversation with Sheri Johnson. I was on her Waking Worth podcast, I don’t know, a month or so ago. We had a great conversation. She’s got a great story we’re going to talk about some things, the difference between childfree and childless, but also her story, but also like self-worth.

That's a hard question of like how do we figure out our self-worth? How do we measure it, maybe? We're going to dive in or. Sheri, tell us about you and who you are.

Sheri

Sure. Thanks for having me, Jay. I am excited to have another conversation with you about.

Dr. Jay

I love having you. So tell us a little about your background, your story.

Sheri

I arrived on being childfree… I do consider myself to be childfree now, but I certainly didn't start that way. I got here on a fertility journey, had three miscarriages, had went through six years of trying, all in my kind of my late, late thirties, early forties. And then at 45 was given the diagnosis that I would not be able to conceive without a donor egg.

And that really brought everything to a standstill. While it wasn't a total standstill, it was a decision that we… you know, my husband and I went back and forth and back and forth and back and forth again and finally decided that we live a pretty good life and we could continue to do that. That really started the healing journey.

You know, even though we had been without kids for our entire marriage for 15 years, we now we're starting this process of, oh, okay, we're never going to be parents, and how do we deal with that?

Dr. Jay

So you mentioned in there, you know, you had 15 years, you kind of on the journey and you said now you consider yourself childfree, kind of like, what do you mean? We've been having these debates on terms and what does it mean and when what's the life plan and all that? But what do you mean that you're now considering yourself childfree?

Sheri

Well, in the beginning I really struggled to figure out… I didn't necessarily feel like I was grieving, which I know a lot of women who end up without children who wanted them, feel. But I was feeling all these triggers. You know, I really… I was very I was envious of other women who had, you know, all the pregnancy announcements.

And everyone seemed to be having babies around me and then also being in the company of moms when they were all talking about their kids. And I couldn't relate. I felt like I didn't belong. I wasn't sure how to fit in, you know, all the questions and advice... they all bothered me. It took me a while to sort of untangle how much of that was my own real desire to have children and how much of that was all the societal pressure to have children.

And what I realized over time was that even women who make a choice to not have children or anyone, it doesn't matter whether it's a woman or other. A lot of us feel those pressures. We get annoyed when someone says, “Oh, childless people are selfish,” or you know, when the first question is always, “How many kids do you have?”

We all are sort of bothered by that. So that made me realize that maybe I'm not grieving so much as I thought. And some of this other stuff doesn't have to do with grief at all, though over time I was able to figure out how to let go of all of that because I was feeling some grief. I had always imagined that I would be a parent and but also was able to let go of the triggers to a point where I now… I'm not bothered by the questions.

I'm not bothered by the people who get on my Instagram comments and tell me that I don't like children or whatever it is. It just doesn't bother me anymore. And that makes me feel childfree, that in loving my life, you know, at first I didn't know what my life was going to look like if I didn't have kids.

Like what? What does anybody's life look like when they don't have kids? But I am now at a point where I love my life and I wouldn't choose to have children now. That's what I mean by feeling much more childfree than I used to.

Dr. Jay

Yeah, it's interesting. We've had large debates about the different terms and the life and we had Katy Seppi and she was talking about the grief process because, you know, in many ways it is a grieving process of this. Our company’s Childfree Wealth and we've gone back for the naming. We're like, look, if you're still trying to conceive or thinking you might conceive, your financial plan is pretty much the standard plan.

But you get to a point where you decide kids are never in the picture. That's where we come in. We called it Childfree Wealth. And I think the hard part is that everybody's journey is different. And you specifically help women through some of this. Tell me kind of what do you do?

Sheri

Yeah, I coach women to get through the grief and the triggers, which, as I said, is a separate thing. And I also help them to redesign their future. And I think there's this misconception out there that that's just going to naturally happen when you process the grief and stop feeling the triggers that life is just going to sort of unfold for you.

And what I'm finding among my clients is that they actually need to take some intentional action to create that life, to tap into their desires. They're so focused on having kids for such a long time. Everything just kind of goes in the back burner and they don't even remember, “Oh, what were my dreams before all of this?”

Dr. Jay

So you talked about, you know, whether it's your choices or society or pressure, we’re in the finance side, we’re in the numbers side. If I made you put a number on it, what percentage that is you versus the environment or the culture? I mean, and is it different with others?

Sheri

Yeah, for me, I would say, I mean, now it's 100% childfree. I feel good. Actually, I would say 95%. I mean, I still have the odd moment, but back when I first started this journey, I would have said 50/50 societal pressure versus me wanting kids. And in others it varies, vastly. I think of it as a spectrum actually, and I think there's people out there who, you know, maybe think, well, maybe I want kids.

I don't know, should I want kids? And they think, yes, I should want kids. But that's a societal pressure. And I think a lot of people, it's got to be really tough to untangle that unless you are really, really sure of yourself. And, you know, this is my choice and I don't care what anybody else thinks. And those are the people who, you know, talking about self-worth.

Those are the people who have really strong self-worth. They know exactly what they want. But I think it's a spectrum. I think everybody's influenced to different degrees by society. And I think everybody also wants children to different degrees.

Dr. Jay

Yeah, I'm with you. I think I agree with the spectrum. I think the one I've been debating lately and kind of where my reading’s been is on this concept of the spotlight, the fact that we all kind of think that the world cares a lot more about us than it really does. You know, it's kind of like reality check is most people are wrapped up in their stuff.

They make comments to us, especially on the Internet. You know, they'll make whatever their comments. But really, they don't they don't care about us. They don't care about whether you know they'll make their comments or make snide remarks. And I was reading into this and the interesting effect is social media is kind of literally put the spotlight on people because we're sharing things publicly and other things and they found that the more you think people care about you, the lower your self-esteem.

Sheri

Mm hmm.

Dr. Jay

I'm like, okay, so let's say we totally embrace. Yep. I don't care what anyone else thinks. They don't care what I think. Cool. Does that just mean, like, our self esteem goes back up and our self-worth goes up? We talk about this, like, self esteem slash self-worth combo. How do those two come together?

Sheri

Oh, that's a great question. I don't know that I have a really good definition of self esteem, but it is different. Self-worth I see as something that is deep within you. It's the heart of everything. It actually everything boils down to self-worth. And that could also be that's closely tied to self love. But self-worth is really “I am worthy” and “I am deserving” and “I am equal.”

Self-esteem is more of a confidence thing and you can walk into a scenario. It's maybe more situational. So you can walk into a scenario and have high self-esteem in one scenario or in one area of your life. And then maybe not even low self-worth, but it's self-worth that could use a boost. Did that kind of make sense?

00:09:16:20 - 00:09:44:21

Dr. Jay

Well, it does, but I think I'm struggling because self-worth is kind of implied in there, that there's a measuring point, you know, or there's a like, you know, when we talk about worth and I happen to think it's a bit more than just a measure. But I think people go, well, you know, you outlined some things and they're like, well, I'm good enough or I've met this or I've done that, but that's measuring yourself against something. Am I missing something?

Sheri

Exactly.

Dr. Jay

Yeah, but hold on, if we talk about the standard life plan, or life script, and I'm arguing if you've left the standard life plan, you know, this get married, have kids, or whatever, then you don't have a measuring stick.

Sheri

We all have measuring sticks. So let's take finances for an example. A lot of people will measure their worth by their net worth or something related. I earn this much they've placed that is their measuring stick. The more I make, the more worthy I am.

Dr. Jay

That's B.S., though. I mean, come on, let's be real.

Sheri

Of course it's BS. But that's what we that's actually what we tell ourselves. If we get to… if we identify too much in that, then that becomes our measuring stick. So if you're chasing money because you think it's going to somehow raise you up, then that's a sign that your self-worth needs to improve because you're placing your worth on something external and worth is internal.

Dr. Jay

Okay, so let's say I ignore the net worth because that’s a measure of your dollars, not a measure of who you are.

Sheri

Exactly.

Dr. Jay

How do you personally as Sheri measure your self-worth?

Sheri

Oh, goodness. You're asking some tough questions. So my own self-worth. I think the only way that you can really measure it is on how you… what evidence you can find in different situations. Let me give you an example, simple example. Before I started doing this work, one of the indicators that your self-worth could use a boost is if you feel intimidated by other people, say, for me what I used to work in the corporate world, I was intimidated by executives, people who were, you know, leaders in the organization, people who are higher up the hierarchy than me, especially if they were male for some reason.

For me. And I felt like they were somehow more worthy than me, I was putting them up on a pedestal. If you're intimidated by anybody, you're putting those people, whoever you're intimidated by, on a pedestal and you're putting yourself lower down. And so if you're intimidated, that's a really good sign. And for me, after I started doing this work, I left the corporate world for a little bit and started consulting.

And I didn't have a lot of interaction with leaders and then suddenly I was asked to go to this meeting this all day, two day event with a whole bunch of executives. And what I noticed that I just I didn't even expect I wasn't consciously working on my confidence or anything to do with my growth, my personal growth in the corporate world.

But what happened over those two days? I was voicing my opinions without even thinking twice about it. I would go up and speak to these executives after the meetings without even thinking about it or feeling nervous that I'm having a conversation with this person that used to intimidate me. Suddenly all of that sort of shifted and tells me, even though there's no specific measuring stick, that evidence tells me that something within me has shifted.

Dr. Jay

So how do we know that something is self worth or you said working on it. What does that mean to me? I know how to work on a net worth. Like that's very… like there's this equation.

Sheri

Yeah.

Dr. Jay

What? How do I work on self-worth?

Sheri

It's a practice. So let me answer your first question first. And how do you even know where you're at? There's a few indicators. There's a bunch of indicators actually. I just named one of those. If people intimidate you, that suggests that you're putting yourself lower down than them. You're deprioritizing yourself. That happens a lot when we people please. We put others needs before our own.

It happens when you are a perfectionist, not you specifically Jay, but…

Dr. Jay

I'm checking off the list as we go along. So it’s okay.

Sheri

When someone is a perfectionist, that's an indicator that they may… they're caring too much about what people think. It has to be perfect before I can put this out. And if it's not, that says something about me. So that's another indicator in the childfree world. It's when what other people say about you bothers you. It could be if someone says something about you and it bothers you, it triggers you, it irritates you.

Whatever the case may be, you're reacting to it, it's usually because they are shining a light on lower self-worth. So those are some of those are a few of the things I actually have a quiz that helps you identify specifically for childfree people. How to identify where your self-worth is at. So those are some of the indicators.

There's a bunch of them. And then your next question was, how do you know or how do you work on your self-worth? Or how do you build it? And that's where I like to use the analogy of muscle self-worth is like a muscle. And if you practice doing things that make you feel worthy, then your self-worth is going to grow. If you stop doing that, then your self-worth is going to atrophy like a muscle that's not exercised.

And the way I'm now getting into the next section, which is kind of the way that you exercise that, how do you even like what is a worthy exercise? Right? And that's different for everybody, but for me, in the something specific to people who are childfree. Baby showers, we often feel obligated to go to a baby shower or some… it doesn't even matter it could be just a kid friendly barbecue or something like that. And you feel like you should go. It's your friend. You want to show up for them. A worthy exercise would be to check in with yourself and ask, “Do I really… like can I show up for my friend at the baby shower? Can I show up for whoever's invited me to this barbecue? Can I really, like, show up fully as my true, authentic self?” And if the answer is no, but I say yes, that's putting the friend's needs and their desires above your own. If you say no, you're honoring your true desires and your authentic self, and it may disappoint somebody and you have to be okay with that. But that's the boundary that's doing something not out of out of obligation, but because you're honoring your true desires, not what somebody else's desires, for you are.

Dr. Jay

Bri and I have this fight all the time because she's much more an extrovert and I'm an introvert. I like the answer: I just don’t have to go to the party. By that measure, I would just never go to any of them, but I don't know that I'm exercising that muscle.

Sheri

Well, it depends. I mean, I'm an introvert, too, and I never liked the baby showers to begin with, even before long ago, when I before I even knew that this that having children was going to be an issue for me. And if you really don't want to go to those things and you go, what is what happens then?

Dr. Jay

Well for me, the hard part is my energy's gone. We just went to a conference, FinCon, and it was interesting to watch the two different… we had two different experiences at the same conference and I'm like at some point I just need to leave the party. I have had enough or skip it or two and then the idea is well, but then the argument is well then you don’t connect with people, which is true, but is that okay?

And you know, like then while they were measuring it by different, I don't know, like there are certain things you have to do, whether it's societal or work pressure or other things. And if I don't lean into the discomfort, is that okay?

Sheri

It depends on… I mean, that's very individual from what you're saying. If you really don't want to go to the party, it becomes a question of, okay, am I honoring my desire to make connections or am I going to am I going to honor my yeah, am I going to honor my need to make connections and my desire to make connections?

Or am I going to honor my need to save my energy? That's a question that you have to ask yourself, which is more important to you, and which does your authentic self really desire the most? So there's never a totally clear answer, but if there's something you absolutely don't want to go to and you know that there's no reason that you need to go to, you know, your wife or your partner isn't going to hear the wrath of them or your friend who invited you or whatever it is.

Then you need to ask yourself, am I going because I feel obligated? Am I going because I feel like I should? There's a good indicator is this should if you're asking if you're telling yourself you should do something, then that's an indication that maybe I don't really want to do this because I feel I should. If you feel guilty for saying no, that's another indicator that I'm only going into this because I feel guilty.

And then you make a decision, am I going to go? Am I going to stay?

Dr. Jay

Yeah. And by the way, for those listening, we're recording this like the week before Thanksgiving and all the holiday parties are coming up and all these like that's in the middle of my brain and my wife and I, we get married, one of our mentors, good friend. Said when he got married with his wife, they made a deal that neither has to go to each other's work parties.

I don't want to go to yours. You don’t want to go to mine. Those are awkward. We're just going to our separate ones, so we actually follow it. It's been great because you don't want to go to the party for a year. Spouses like whatever. We've done this where hey, neither of us have to go to our parties. But then people, at the party, like I've never met your spouse. I’m like that's okay.

And I think it's hard sometimes for society or cultures or groups to understand that. And I think one of the challenges are here as well. As soon as I live my whole life without kids, I'm then disconnected from what whatever 80% of the rest of the world is doing. And then how do I get that connection?

Sheri

Hmm, that's another good question. I think the first question is, does that matter? You know, do you like for you and me, I'm an introvert as well. I'm kind of on the border, actually. I lean towards the introverted side, but I do need some connection. But that's the first question. Like, what do you need? We're all told that we need connection, and I think it's kind of a basic human need.

But how much of it do you need? That's the first question that you ask yourself.

Dr. Jay

I got a grab book, so that's what we just reviewed, Essential Retirement Planning for Solo Agers, by Sarah Zeff Geber, PhD. And her argument is that if you're going to plan your elder years well and have a support system, you need to be connected with people to do that. And I'm like, or I could just make my money do it for me.

I don't have to connect lots of people to count on them to do it. And, maybe it’s societal pressures that are saying you need that connection, but at the same time I'm going well as a human. Don't we need it? Yeah. Or is that just kind of like, I don't know, societal pressure. So expectations that, say, the more friends you have, the better.

I mean, let's not talk about Instagram friends and Facebook friends and all that. But like, I can have three or four or five good friends and I'm good and my wife wants a hundred. So I don't know.

Sheri

Well, that's also individual. I think my personal opinion is that you can have some really deep connections with a few people in your life and that can carry you right through. Other people who are extroverts need a lot of… they need a lot of connections because they want to be social. They want to spend a lot of time with other people.

That's where they get their energy. And so they may need a lot of people around them. My personal belief is that we need as humans some really a few really deep connections. We don't… It's very individual whether you go beyond that.

Dr. Jay

Really, that's fair. I think what I've seen is kind of weird. I'm Gen X and one of my generation younger. I mean, whatever is self-imposed, whatever is this overachiever routine, you got to get to a you got to get the star. You got to check all the boxes. It's been a struggle for me throughout. And I was reading an article I think this morning or next a couple days ago said, hey, if you want good health for your kids, never tell them about being in a good college.

You get the pressure about if you do this in school, then you get into a good college and then you get a good career and then you get a good life. And then you get like it's like and good becomes this like sword that can poke you and say, hey, you know, well, if I don't do this, I'm not going to have…

And one of the things I've found is that for some folks and I don't happen to agree with this, but some folks say, hey, I don't have kids, so I have to have this super career where I have to make up in a different way. You have to have a huge impact on something else. And I wonder if that's related that self-worth measure of like if I don't do X, I must do Y.

Sheri

I have to make up for it.

Dr. Jay

Have you seen it?

Sheri

Have I seen it? How have I like witnessed that.

Dr. Jay

Have you seen people having this, they have to make up for not having kids or you know, this silent expectation of not having kids you need. You must. And then how do you deal with that?

Sheri

Oh, yeah, I've definitely seen it. There is… there's you know, you're supposed to have I think Jodi Day said this, this or somebody in that in the community said you're supposed to have this Oprah sized career, this oversized life if you don't have kids to to tie you down or to, you know, kids aren't your “purpose.” I see that in air quotes.

Then you have to have something else and that's, well, partly societal pressure, but that societal pressure, we internalize that and our parents do. So there's your parents who maybe not yours, but whoever you need to go to a good college in order to have a good career and you need to go to college in the first place like that is societal pressure, but that becomes internalized when you're told these things from a young age.

We bring all that inside of us and they become our beliefs. They and they become our beliefs about ourselves. If we go to college, if we go to a good college and then we get a good career, then we think, Oh, I must be good. I must be worthy because I've done those things. And if we don't, we decide we want to do something different?

I want to be an entrepreneur and I'm going to start when I'm 18. Then we think, oh, with that. But that's not good enough because my parents told me this is what's good. So then we start to feel like, Well, I'm not good enough if I do this. And so then they go to college and it's that pressure within you and without that tells you, I need to follow this path instead of following my own true, authentic self and what I desire and what I want to do.

Dr. Jay

Yeah, we gave it to people on following their own path. Then we get over guilt and shame and all the other things that go with it. And I've been working hard at this with some clients and everything and the people that really want the Gold Star. I've come to the conclusion that I can't reprogram their way of looking at the world of having to get the Gold Star, you know?

And I might be wrong, but it's hard to reset that mindset. It's been that way for 50 years of like, I always have to achieve whatever it is. And what I tend to do is then take that whatever that goal driven nature or whatever it is, that core belief of theirs and shifted to something else.

I'll say, okay, let’s not measure dollars. Let's measure lives impacted, or hours volunteered, or even hours hiked or like, I don't care, but like, I almost feel like I have to shift them to another goal because otherwise they're like, what am I working on? It's really rare that I find somebody that is like good, just being themselves and being happy with it.

And maybe that's a skill, maybe, you know, magic on it. But I just struggle with how to get people that have been high achieving throughout their life or towards those good or what's expected to shift and focus on what they enjoy.

Sheri

Well, you already said this on I've heard you say this, I think, on my podcast and on your own on another episode where you said what I like to ask them and you said, I don't do this very often and I think you should do it more. You said, I asked them, what's the… who is the voice in their head?

Who's saying, who are you hearing when you say, I need to do it this way or I need to? And you were talking about investing. Like, what if I plan out my life this way? Who's that voice in your head that's telling you you're supposed to plan it that way and you can't do what you really want? You can't spend your money the way that you want, or you can't do whatever you want in your life, whatever it is, whether it's your money or what you want to do with your time or your energy, who is the voice in your head?

And I just think you should use that more often because it does really shift. Oh, okay. That's actually my dad who kept telling me that. Do I really believe that? Maybe I don't.

Dr. Jay

Well, and I find that the voice in the head trick works to shift them away from where you got to go up the corporate ladder. We’ll use that example, you know I've got to take this next promotion where I'm like says who listen like you lose the voice and I get them to go, alright. No, that's not me.

But how do I get them to stop measuring on the goals? And you're saying, well, self-worth has a measurement anyway. And then maybe there's not a great answer, but it's like I can get them to shift away from whatever their goal was. But the core nature of being goal driven or always wanting a measuring stick, that's much harder even when the test of like whose voice in your head is just at that point, they're like, well, I just always have, and they fill in the blank, you know, whatever you I've always been somebody that had to get the A or whatever.

I met somebody for my book and he’s brilliant. He's in his mid-forties and he's going to retire early, you know, do video games and gaming for a living and just hang out and just do his thing. And his only regret is that his friends are you know, his friends are working.

So and again, you know, and I'm like, and what do you do for your goals where he's like, “No, I'm just good.” Like I'm in or his best. The way I think. Like I've always been, you know, raised, you know, whatever you do to be best that human I in the game, you either have to be the best one at or so I don't know.

Well, like, that's the I'm like, wow, this guy's got it. But I think that's just what he always was. He actually in the book is we call The Portrait of Successful Laziness. He's very proud that he could do just enough work to get through. And I'm like, that's a goal itself. I mean, like, I don't know if we can throw away the measuring stick and to worry when people the net worth, self-worth, connections and measuring things do they measure the wrong things?

Does it matter? Or can we just like write a completely new script?

Sheri

All of the above. So the differences, the when the measuring sticks are external measuring sticks, that's when you know you're measuring your value, your worth in the world by standards that are outside of yourself. It's not being goal driven by itself, isn't… that's not the measurement. It's when you start saying… I think it's great. Well, we all have goals and that goal might be to achieve the life of successful laziness or whatever that phrase was that you just said. I loved it. It might be that, you know, whatever your goal is, fine. It's when you start measuring your worth by whether you achieve that goal or not, that it becomes a problem. It becomes a problem when you start saying, well, I'm not as worthy because I only make $30,000 a year, I'll be worthy when I start making 40 or 50 or 100 or a million, that's when I'll be happy and that's when I'll be worthy.

And it's when we place those external measuring sticks, like I'll be worthy when I have children and I'm not as good if I don't. That's measuring your worth on something that is actually external to you. I think we can throw away those measuring sticks and start measuring your worth based on how often do I do what I truly desire?

How often do I do what's authentic to me? How often do I say what is authentically going on through my mind? How often do I voice my true opinion versus saying what I think that other person's going to want me to say? So those are to me, the measuring stick is internal. It's only measuring yourself versus maybe your prior self or based on what your true authentic self desires and needs instead of what other people think is best or good enough or whatever those words are.

Dr. Jay

Yeah, we could probably do a whole other half an hour on figuring out what your self is, what you actually want, you know, I mean, there's all around that, but if I want to yeah. Exercising that self-worth muscle do you have a favorite like book or resource or like start here guide or like where do I start?

Sheri

Yeah, one of my favorites is a book called The Worthy Project by Meadow Devoir. And that's really where self-worth is a hard concept to even wrap your head around. Like we hear this… these words all the time, like, I am worthy or I'm not good enough. It's really hard to conceptualize to really integrate what that really means. And that book did a really good job of helping you really understand what does it mean to have self-worth and or to not.

And some of those practices, the muscles, as we talked about.

Dr. Jay

Yeah, I have to add it to my never ending reading list I always add books. I actually have a pile next to me. Like I need to get caught up.

Sheri

Oh me too.

Dr. Jay

Alright Sheri, if someone wants to work with you or get to know you. Where can they find you? Where can they hear more about what you're doing?

Sheri

I'm on Instagram at Sheri Johnson coaching and website SheriJohnson.CA. I’m Canadian, hence the CA. Yeah, I have a group program. I do one on one sessions. And of course, as you know, as you mentioned earlier, I have the Awakening Worth podcast so they can find me there too.

Dr. Jay

Is that different than your secret podcast? I heard you have a secret podcast too.

Sheri

I do have a secret podcast. That one's not public. I have a secret podcast that helps childless women to get through grief and triggers, and that is available at SheriJohnson.CA/SecretPodcast. I think we can link that up in the show notes, right?

Dr. Jay

We'll link it. Now you’ve shared the secret so I’m not sure it’s so secret, but that's okay.

Sheri

The series is not public. They have to talk to me to get it.

Dr. Jay

That works. Thanks for showing us little difference of self-worth net worth how it mixes in. I think it's an area of research that we'll probably talk about for decades, especially when it comes to childfree folks and how to do it. So although they wouldn't really answer like is the answer, but at least we have the right questions on where to start.

Sheri

Yeah. Thanks so much for having me, Jay.