Dr. Jay
Hey Childfree Wealth listeners, we are back in the book club and this one, Bri picked this. So we're talking about Who Cooked Adam Smith's Dinner? And it's by Katherine Marçal. Or how do you pronounce her name?
Bri
I think it's Katrine Marçal.
Dr. Jay
I messed it up. Definitely. But here's the thing. I fought with this book nonstop. I've been fighting with this book for about a month. And I'm going to be honest, I didn't finish it. Like I breezed through most of it. I fought with it. Bri, you picked this.
Bri
I know.
Dr. Jay
Help me.
Bri
This was overly hyped. I saw it on Instagram. Somebody had suggested it and said it was really good. And now I'm like, oh, this was terrible.
Dr. Jay
Okay, so at least I'm not wrong. Like, okay.
Bri
Yeah.
Dr. Jay
I mean, I love reading. Okay. In general, I love reading. And it talks about history. I love history. It talks about finance. I like finance. It talks about equity. I like that.
Like the pieces together. I liked & liked them individually. But once, like… I was reading view of it, they said, like, this is, you know, a book for a writer's writer. I'm like, no, I write books. This is not what I agree like.
Bri
Okay. I did read the reviews yesterday. For listeners, we weren't talking about this and I was like, I got to try and finish it. So I was up till 1 a.m. last night, like forcing myself to finish this book. And as I read them, I like go through and write notes. There were things I have so many book titles written down here because every time there's a book, I write it down.
I think I just read more about book titles than anything in this. It just it was… very, very hard to read. I wanted to love it, but I couldn't. Like I even went to the library last night to pick up another book and they had this one ready. Finally, after, you know, I bought it and I handed it back to them, I was like, “Oh, I don't need this one anymore.”
And they're like, “Oh, this kind of looks good.” I'm like, “It's not that good. No.”
Dr. Jay
Okay, so here's what we're going to do we are going to pick apart this book. By the way, I think the author is trying to do the right thing. It just like there's an execution problem with it is they way I feel. But there's a lot of interesting concepts in here I want to talk about around economics, around gender roles, but like the premise from the title, from what I thought we were talking about was we're going to talk about how men and women work in economies and how it fits and different things are hidden there.
And it kinda read more like let's try to get fancy on talking about this stuff, but not make it accessible. Does that make any sense?
Bri
Yeah, and it felt very choppy from chapter to chapter. It didn't feel like things flowed that well either.
Dr. Jay
Alright. So let's pull apart. So it starts off talking about this concept of the economic man and for those who haven't delved into a whole bunch of economic theories, Adam Smith kind of gets the credit for being the modern father of economics in the concepts, and I thought, we're going to debate that in the book, but that really wasn't where it went.
And this whole concept is that if you leave a person to be, they're going to do what's in their best interest. That's the bottom line. That’s the whole economic theory. And this whole economic man concept. Is that fair Bri?
Bri
Oh, for sure. It is like 100% economic man looks out for himself, only goes after what he wants, doesn't care about other people, has no emotions. But that was I don't know, it wanted to come across as going against that. But I don't think it did a great job of that, though.
Dr. Jay
So this was 2015, at least what I'm seeing, maybe it's just shifted that much in seven, eight years. I'm struggling because I'm the white male in the crowd here and I'm going, cool, if I'm going to go around the feminist path, we're going to support women. This didn't do it.
Bri
Mm hmm. I think, like, so long way too far on the other direction and said, oh, well, people do these things out of love so much. It went from one extreme to the other. I felt like.
Dr. Jay
Right. So. So here's where I start. It starts off a whole bunch of discussion about Robert Russo. And, you know, what's a desert island and blah, blah, blah. And maybe, you know, a lot of that, like, you're all out for yourself. You're probably right that that is like the classic finance bro approach, the Chads of the world and you know, like it's just we bring I have ongoing jokes about this and I just.
Bri
Dad’s, Brad's, and Chad's as Taylor Swift would say.
Dr. Jay
Like I don't come out of the finance world. So maybe I'm just I don't know, I'm not an alpha or whatever, you know, whatever their thing is for this week. Okay. You watch these folks on on the the finfluencers and you know or you know that's not what the economy is now or the approach to economics. Yes, it is for some people, you know.
Yeah, you want to watch The Wolf of Wall Street or something like that. Cool. That was a place. But like, I don't know, maybe I'm just being Pollyannish that I'm like, that's not the whole story now.
Bri
I think there are people out there who are just very like self-interested and they're doing these things only for themself. And there are people who do a lot more things out of love and care for others. But I think most people are somewhere in the middle.
Dr. Jay
Well, it depends if we're gonna go to historic gender roles, which is really where this book goes. Yeah. Alright. And by the way, we'll have a whole separate conversation because really, they only had male and female in this book. I mean, like, that.
Bri
It’s very binary.
Dr. Jay
Yeah, very classic gender roles. And the people are going to say, I want to go back to the good old times of the fifties and sixties.
Dr. Jay
Okay, maybe. Okay. That's kind of where this was written from. But I'm like, we're not there now. Or maybe I'm just not there, I don't know, like maybe my picture of the world or my wife and I embrace the Garden of Rose for years. And if you’ve listened to podcast, the Garden & Rose, one's providing support, one is growing. I don't talk about gender in that because it doesn't matter. You know, I’ve done the cooking the entire time, but according to the book, that's something the women should do.
Like it just gets I don't know, I'm for you. As you listening, I'm really struggling with this book. I tried hard on it and I feel like maybe I'm just missing something.
Bri
This book, I don't think it was saying we should go back to that because we shouldn't like that. It was gross. I think it was trying to say that is how it was always raised. Women were completely discounted. The traditional domestic labor was completely discounted, not considered.
Dr. Jay
The fact that, you know, my wife and I embraced the garden of the rose and I do more of the domestic work. What does that mean in this author's eyesight? Because that's what I'm you know, like there's just these these norms that are there that I had trouble with.
Bri
She's saying, like, that needs to be considered. She's not saying that, at least from what I took out of it, not saying that we should be going back to those. She's saying, hey, we need to recognize that domestic work is important, is valuable. And this whole notion that it is just free and easy to do is complete bullshit because it is.
Dr. Jay
Well, I'm with you. But here's the thing she is back in the. Hey, we've got a couple. They're married. Mixed gender and they have kids. So the pronatalist bias… I don't know what the term is for a couple bias, but I mean, there probably is one, but I don't know, like it's all built in there and that doesn't match the world we're living in now.
That's where like, she's like, we need to measure it differently. And I'm with you, by the way, the whole concept of jobs, there's actually some really good data that if you want to get a further ahead in your job, you need to have a support role at home. Somehow, whether you pay for them or it's a spouse or like there's just too much going on in life, you know, that just has to get done.
The question of how does it get valued? How does it get measured? And then like, okay, if I’m buying everything she's saying, she never talks in there about what happens if you're single.
Bri
And she talks about Florence Nightingale, which I don't think Florence Nightingale ever got married, but she doesn't talk about it in the fact of this was very much like let's not discount that the work that women do. Let's not say that their job should be paid lower because they're, quote unquote, caring jobs. And this one part I wrote this down because it really kind of pissed me off a little bit.
There is a section in there, and it was when I was talking about Florence Nightingale, it said Nurses are noble and important, so it shouldn't pay. Yet the opposite logic is applied to, quote, men's work. It's important and it should pay well. So it's talking about teachers and nurses and how those are, quote unquote, caring jobs. Their typically women because women were taught to be in those positions.
And now, yes, things are changing, which is good. But she's talking about how like it really hasn't changed yet. And women are paid lower and just those jobs in general are paid lower.
Dr. Jay
Which is not true right now. Because I'll tell you right now, nurses after COVID have many of them have gotten more respect, more money, more time. I mean, there's been a huge shift.
Bri
I would be careful about that. There are places where they are very much not treated well. And I've seen that.
Dr. Jay
Oh, I didn't say treated well and money like, you know, like.
Bri
Treated and money though those can go together.
Dr. Jay
Well still, then you'll have people that are doctors saying the same thing. They are. But there's a whole health care problem. Okay, that's a separate. Like, we're not going to we're not going to answer that problem. What I'm struggling with is if the argument of the book, which was pretty consistent about we need to value the other work, then we're still saying there's gender roles.
Bri
Yes, there is still gender roles considered. But have you seen the tried wife movement?
Dr. Jay
Yes.
Bri
Yeah, that is a big thing. Like even how I grew up was very traditional like that. And I'm 26 years old. Like, I know as soon as I go back, whenever I visit, I'm going to be put in that very gendered role. I'm the one cooking, I'm the one cleaning, I'm doing all of that. So to then say, you know, well, this isn't happening anymore.
It's still happening. It's not right that it's happening, but it is still happening. And you see that & that work needs to be respected and doesn't matter what gender should be doing it? Because men and women and non-binary people, everybody is equally capable of doing this work.
Dr. Jay
I'm with you and it should be respected. It should be appreciated. What I challenge is she's trying to push the discussion, but it feels like it's pushing too much back towards the traditional roles and expectations. And as I’ll tell you my lens the whole, you got to procreate and have kids. And that's part of it. Like that was pretty strong in here and that's where I started.
Bri
Okay you said that & I was like trying to go through. I was like, I am not really seeing that like.
Dr. Jay
Oh, see, this is where you go in the beginning on the foundational components she's talking about, hey, as soon is a woman is getting pregnant, what impact work and it was an expectation that's built in there this is that lens you look through it and that just might be my lens. I don't call that out.
Bri
Yeah, I think you tend to pick up those things more than I do, and I'm just kind of like, okay, yeah, I recognize that there are things and it doesn't really and it doesn't only give me as upset as it does you.
Dr. Jay
That’s okay. Like my problem with this book is… by the way I think the economy's messed up. This constant growth concept is not good, this idea that we're all in it for ourselves. I don't agree. Like there's core principles of economics I don't agree with and I don't know if they all apply or they’re all real or not. And should we all have equal roles be able to manage, you know, be respected?
I hundred percent agree on all of that. It was just the way it was approached in this book that I had issues with, and I'm still struggling to put my finger on it.
Bri
The whole thing felt like it was trying to get to a point, and I do think it did bring a point, but it doesn't really it was trying to push this idea that people are motivated by love and love alone and not self-interest. I think that both things can be true, and I don't think that it did a good job of showing that.
And instead it was just like, well, if everything's by love, we should all value that the same, but I don't even agree with that basic premise.
Dr. Jay
So let's play this out then. Maybe the issue here is the fact that it was really cast as a binary decision. Economic man and loving woman. I mean, I'm simplifying, but that's kind of where she went.
Bri
Yup.
Dr. Jay
And maybe it is just like gender and just like many things in life. It's much more of a spectrum, much more of a sliding scale, much more of a gray than a black and white.
I would read a chapter in like my head would hurt and I would like my head would hurt. My ADD would start acting up because I just want to do something else like I was fighting it.
And maybe that is the dialectic thinking that it has to be one or the other.
Bri
Yeah. That is the big thing that I got out of it was it really felt like it was trying to push this idea that it had to be one or the other as it doesn't have to be. Everybody is capable of doing domestic work. Everybody is capable of working different jobs. And the idea that we're only in our jobs and doing those things out of love, well, now, absolutely not.
I don't know anybody who's only doing their job because of love. There are some people who maybe are like, yeah, I'm working to fund whatever. But that is not because they inherently just love their job. If they're working to fund a specific idea… we even talk through this idea with clients. We’ll say, okay, you want to keep working when you can retire, then we need to say your work is paying for whatever else or helping donate to whatever else.
It's not just love, and it's also not just the self-interest of getting more money.
Dr. Jay
Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's just the lens we look through the world does color. It’s the rose colored glasses or whatever you want to call it. And I just I would like to take the premise this book, maybe this should be Bri's homework. Take the premise of this book and flesh it out as a true reflection of the wide variety of people.
And we can talk about how economics is not helping certain groups and how it advantages others and how we need to measure it differently or respect it differently. But it's more of a gradient. I'm all for all the history in there, like all the discussion, good stuff. But like, I don't know, maybe this is like almost like something on social media where like they're saying it black and white, so people fight it.
Bri
Yeah, I could definitely see that. And I think there are just so many different things and different resources and she's like, well, this part from this section, it almost felt like you felt like a book with a homework assignment, like, oh, you need to go read all these other things too.
Dr. Jay
So let's bring this out to investing for a second. So if we follow the theories of where they're going, your economic man is all about what's in their best self-interest. Well then, is it in people's best interest to invest in ESG funds, or is that a loving thing to give back to the environment and your mother, Mother Earth and everything she was talking about in there? It's both. It's not black and white.
Bri
Exactly.
Dr. Jay
And I don't know, like anyone listening to this, I want you to make a better suggestion of a book that talks about economics and gender and roles as a gradient. Maybe there's one out there with more nuance. Let's call you like I'm 100% behind that concept. It's just the way it was presented, and maybe I'm just looking at it wrong.
Bri
I think it's just very different because like yours relationship is just basically flipped gender roles, essentially, whereas mine like we’re two women. But there are definitely gender roles still play into things and I handle a lot of the domestic work, but also we hire out some of it too, because we want to advance our careers and we need that support. So we pay for help.
But yet I grew up in that very traditional sense and I know that I get that and like I can tell you right now that guess what? Grandchild was washing dishes and drying them after eating. The other ones are outside doing whatever. But I was the one doing that. That is… it's so, so different. I think that plays a big part in it.
But yeah, this was very binary like even the cover. Well, my cover anyway, it was woman, woman with pink background, man with a blue background and just split straight down the middle. That is not the world we live in. And so while I think it tried to do good things, it just swung way too far.
Dr. Jay
I’m not even sure if it swung way too far. It's just the way it was presented in my mind.
Bri
Well, yeah, I think this is the swinging from, like, strictly economic man to oh, it's all about love. I don’t think it is though.
Dr. Jay
I don't know, the fun part of this is you kind of have to read books like this and then fight with them. It is a lot of opportunity and it makes you kind of question, why are you fighting with it? Which is good. Would I encourage someone to buy this and read it? No.
Bri
Yeah.
Dr. Jay
Like as a homework assignment for… like if this was an academic homework assignment? Yeah, maybe. Okay, you know, we can have a good debate. What are you going to give it on your five star list there Bri.
Bri
I gave it a three. I was so, like conflicted. Ultimately, I decided to give it a three because I think just the questioning, everything and really wrestling with it deserved that. But I could not go above that. I was like, I can’t give it more than this.
Dr. Jay
Yeah. I mean, and it may just be I mean, the book was written seven, eight years ago. Maybe we've come that far in eight years that this starts feeling odd. I almost said tone deaf a little bit because it kind of feels that way a little bit to me. But that just might be my lens and my privilege and my own look at it.
I don't know if you've read it in the comments like feel free to rip us up because like maybe we just missed the book. Like, I mean, seriously, I felt like maybe I'm just not equipped to understand this.
Bri
I think this book, just the traditional gender roles, really pissed me off a lot because I don't like that and I don't like that. I was raised in a very traditional way and still those expectations are put on me, and I think that's why this book bothered me so much. While yes, I think all work should be valued, I don't think that we should be promoting, “Well this is women's work,” instead of the idea that everybody can do this.
Dr. Jay
Yeah. And I also don't think measuring it differently would fix the problem because that was one of her principles. Like if it was measured in value, the saying and I'm like, that's treating the symptom, not the disease. You know, it's not treating the core issue. But I don't know. I mean, if you want to see it in real life, watch parents when they value babysitters, you know, if they if you ever see the math on what does somebody at home taking care of the kids do and all that they've figured out per hours and all that if they are, oh, it's $100,000 job.
But then they pay the babysitter minimum wage like, you know, like there's all these things around it. Weird systems, the way we track things that I don't know, I really don't know. I think it's something we need to struggle way to work through. Bottom line is, if you want to read it and fight with us, please go right ahead.
I'm not really sure I'm going to get anywhere on it. I just got to apologize that it's not for me. Next book, actually, I made Bri read this a little while ago when we were working together on some of the stuff with her, her wife, and she wanted to throw it at me. So it's a perfect match. That is The Gap and the Gain.
We're gonna talk about The Gap and The Gain is our next book and really how we look at the world and kind of challenge those folks who like struggle because they always wanted the gold star, which by the way, I'm one of those. So yeah, this might be it might end up as a little bit of a therapy session for Bri and I.
But this book, if you read it because it was part book club and you hated it, blame Bri.
Bri
Yeah, full permission to yell at me, you can email me and tell me how much you hate it.
